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Download All Files. Select a Collection. Save to Collection. Tip Designer. Share this thing. Send to Thingiverse user. In the midele some tonalities are good, that is just a question of luck. I am still listening, no piece sound perfect to me, alqyas something make my teeth I feel bad.. GrandPianoMan can you post recordings done with another tuning so we can compare?
Thanks so much to allow us to benefit from those experiment, I highly appreciate that. Example with an arbitrary P4 beat speed: P4 G3-C4 beats 1 bps wide. Since these are tests, not just checks, inharmonicity will not affect the results. And if for some reason the 4th is narrow, the justness of the other intervals and the RBI progression is opposite. I hope this is what you were looking for, and I hope one cup of coffee is enough to say it correctly!
Kamin and Jeff, Grandpianoman and I expected you to say what you did. If every pianist for the last 20 years for whom I have tuned this way perceived what I do the way you do, don't you think I would have heard some comment about that by now? Could it not be that your own perception is wrapped up and locked up in the total devotion to temperament equality and it has robbed you of all ability to enjoy music for the way it was intended and expected to sound?
Grandpianoman is a professional musician of the very highest caliber who studied music at the university and earns his living solely as a musician but is not a pianist. He has a fine home and his very expensive piano is only one of the many fine possessions that he has. Don't you think it is somewhat condescending of you to tell him what is wrong?
Should you not allow him to have his own opinion about what kind of sound he prefers? Are you really right and everyone at his home that evening, a group which included other fine and professional musicians are all wrong? Is the entire history of tuning before the 20th Century all wrong? Is only mathematical theory right? Your opinions, as I said, were anticipated but they will not influence or change anything whatsoever about the way I tune. They will not cancel the session with Randy Potter in June that there will be for me to teach him to tune as I do.
They will not prevent this preeminent instructor of tuning and piano technology who has students all over the world and teaches at virtually every PTG seminar and institute from broadening his knowledge and skills and adding what he learns to his curriculum. Do you presume to call him a fool and to tell him not to try to tune this way as you have told me repeatedly and also warned Patrick from Finland of the dire consequences of daring to do anything but what you say is correct?
Is it possible that more and more people, technicians and musicians alike will find these concepts to be musically appealing and leave only you to express your dislike of them? Is PTG also wrong to present that idea for tuning, far more unequal than mine with far more dissonance versus consonance than mine at the next PTG convention? Is everybody who likes these ideas, finds them appealing, wants their pianos tuned this way wrong and only you are right? Frankly , I was disappointed, expecting something more coherent, more fun, more resonance.
Those recordings have been uploaded exactly for that purpose, so everyone can have an idea of how it tones and eventually comment. I simply state what that tuning provide to me in terms of musicality or listening pleasure.
It is perfect, if some enjoy it, it does not worry me , why would it? But thats just me, and I am also listening with "perfect pitch" which does not help when it comes with uneven temperaments. They make sense to me, musically. I also appreciated what you did with that small spinet that the pianist recorded, and what PPat recording in EBVT My impression is really about disequilibrium in harmony - voila, sorry - but I agree with the way some ET are bland and not having enough harmony sometime, I listened to a perfetcly tuned Steinway recently, a concetr for CHopin anniversary was given in Poland, Chopin concertos, with orchestra.
Lot of stretch , so the piano pass above the orchestra, , crispness, but little harmony. While listening I understood what I had find with Alfredo "Chas" approach, and it missed me in the listening.
Those sensations of lack of harmony may well be the origin of your quest for something different, and better. Best wishes. You are apparently in the minority, Isaac. It sounded terrible to me. What puzzles me is that you seem to like a recording that has a far more unequal temperament than the EBVT III, far worse unisons and octaves that scream. It is the way I tune for everybody and nobody yet has ever said what you did. Instead, I get phone calls, e-mails, thank you cards in the mail, cash gratuities and technicians on this list wanting to learn how to do it the way Jim Coleman, Sr.
I am not tuning for you, so it doesn't matter to me what you think and your opinion will not change my practices. I am eager to hear how well Grandpianoman can restore the tuning using the data I gave him.
That, after all, was the main purpose of the trip. So first of all we are told that we should wait for Grandpianoman to post the recordings of the tunings ok? Then these tunings are posted. People chime in and give their opinions. Then when an unfavourable opinion is posted that is not liked by the people involved in the tunings procedure they are jumped all over. There is a reason that Isaac and Jeff are in the minority. If your ego will not allow you to take honest opinions of your work then you have not learned much about life or this business.
If you cannot take constructive criticism then perhaps stay out of camera range. Why do you think some of us refuse to comment on this project? It is quite apparent to me now that you are not interested in honest opinions Bill you are only interested in praise. A shame that the tuning was partly lost. But I do like the Debussy and Scriabin recordings very much. Bill, are you still tuning in the earlier EBVT's, too? For some pieces, I may like them more.
Isaac makes an interesting point about a wide stretch being used so that a piano can ride on top of an orchestra. To get the treble high, the middle is stretched, too?
It doesn't have to be, but often is? And EBVT wants, in part, to bring back more harmonious sounds, and thus uses a few pure 5ths in the middle?
But let's not get into an argument over one temperament being better than another. So, what is new? For 20 years I've been told by technicians that what I am doing is wrong and have been warned not to do it. So, what else is new? I don't care what your opinion is. If you don't like it, I don't care. One more time: I don't care what you think. So, if you don't want to comment, don't comment! For all of those who "realized" what the "set up" was, leave room for those who are actually interested.
I already know what your opinion is, so you do not need to take the trouble to write it. Your opinion will not change my opinion nor will it change the opinions of those who pay for my services. Your opinion will not change in any way whatsoever how I choose to tune the piano.
So, don't bother. You will be wasting your time and energy and accomplish nothing. No one stated that you are wrong either. If people cannot share their honest opinion without you becoming a child of 5 years of age then this forum ceases to function.
I have seen you claim to be a musician and artist. A true artist will paint a picture, produce a canvas or write a song.
A true artist will then present this to the public. There will be supporters and detractors. A true artist will take this all in stride. After all it is art. Some will like and some will not. Get a hold of yourself Bremmer, grow up and act like a professional.
Originally Posted by Jake Jackson. Here, for anyone interested is the temperament Peter Serkin likes. The figures in the Journal are not the offsets to use with and ETD calculated program. They were measurements of aural tuning. This temperament will work well with a calculated stretch because it is a meantone temperament. That mitigates the harsh side of the temperament just enough for Serkin's liking.
He is touring the country using it. The key of A-flat sparkles with energy. The minor keys with four or more flats are very dark and disturbing. All 17th and 18th Century music have the proper tonal character. Dissonant chords in Jazz are all the more incisive.
Show tunes and standards are superbly singable. Grandpianoman, you will want to try this some day! Just use the RCT or Tunelab default stretch. I have found this discussion interesting, and eagerly listen to any sample recordings.
However, I have a problem listening to and evaluating the tuning temperament if the unisons are out, and unless I am overlooking something I haven't heard a recording that is really good enough to be evaluated.
Am I the only one? I realize that the tuning drifted before the recording could be made. While we all know the importance of a good temperament, it is the unisons which are critical for fine tuning and some think they are the most difficult aspect as well. Hopefully next time it might be recorded after.
I am in the process of re-tuning with Bill's figures as I type this Of course I am going string by string with my rubber mutes as opposed to strip muting, which takes me a bit longer I watched Bill use a muting stip, but did ask how to do it. I should have a few recordings posted later tonight. Interesting phenomenon I can see both as I tune RCT says it's flat, Tunelab, says it's sharp, or vice-versa Next time I tune, I will go with Tunelab's tuning.
Bill, thanks for the Serkin figures Stay tuned pun intended The one I like best is Rhapsody in Blue. It sounds the way I intended it to sound and the way I like it to sound. Serkin does not perform on fortepianos. He is a Steinway artist. In the historic temperaments, one actually heard, vividly, the innate differences in key colors that exist among these tonalities, giving a real aural sense to the harmonic structure of the piece.
One viscerally experienced the carried colorations within each harmonic change. I also played some of those passages from Beethoven Concerti which feel somehow suspended by their remoteness to their home-keys. In seventh-comma modified meantone temperament, to which Tim Farley had tuned the pianos, all the harmonic relationships become fully alive and meaningfully colorful in a manner that, it seems, cannot be conveyed in standard equal temperament.
We can admire much in the black-and-white lines and forms of great paintings, but how much richer and more beautiful they are in full color, too! In seventh comma there no longer seems to be a need to overly fabricate a specialness to certain varied harmonies with concocted voicings, slowing of tempo, or what-have-you; now the pitches themselves manifest these colors and atmospheres directly and convincingly. In Schubert, too, music reappearing in various, often distantly related keys, arrived at through extensive modulation, takes on new light and character in each of its emanations, in seventh-comma.
I was fascinated by what I heard on that first visit, but it was not until twenty years later that I started to use these tunings myself. In this more recent encounter I was so persuaded and intoxicated by it that I now try to have pianos, for every concert where it might be effected, as well as on my instruments at home, tuned to one-seventh syntonic comma modified meantone temperament.
Midway between one-quarter pure meantone and one twelfth comma equal meantone, one seventh comma seems to be a magical solution to accommodating all keys more or less , albeit with some wolf intervals, and at the same time retaining an intrinsic variegated keycoloration.
No longer confined to only one key in two modes, major and minor, which in standard equal temperament are then transposed eleven times, the older traditional tunings open up the spectrum, giving distinct individual character to each of twenty-four keys. There being no particular historical justification at all for using this one temperament for so many periods of music, the fact that it works so very satisfactorily for all this music attests, I think, to its intrinsic viability as a general temperament for keyboard instruments.
Peter Serkin [This article is an excerpt from a letter in which Peter Serkin discusses his use of one seventh comma meantone temperament. The complete text of his letter can be read on ptg. Obviously, his opinion about non-equal temperaments and the effects they have on music is far different from yours. Bill, I listened to the Rhapsody in Blue since you suggested it was the best representation.
The tuning sounds pretty clean. Is it possible that what I thought were wild unisons are simply intervals I am not used to hearing at a particular beat rate? Are some 4ths or 5ths a bit on the wild side? I am hearing this mostly in the middle. The upper treble sounds fantastic, is it pretty well stretched? Please forgive me for not having the time yet to decipher the variances, since I am an aural tuner it can require math I'm not used to using.
Another sense I get is that this recording sounds very 'vintage', as if it were performed back in Gershwin's time. Is that also the reasoning behind this type of tuning? As if it was what was being used at that time.
Maybe not what you see today in terms of modern concert tuning, but what certain individuals are eager to discover. Just my thoughts. Well some bass resonance are magnificent, but E major sound out of tune, the variations, to me does not add anything to the music. More than that the tuning sound dull and lack "air" in the high medium, like with not enough opening of the octaves.
Clean, may be the term, but c5 is flat as ever. Thanks for the letter from Peter Serkin, I wait to listen to that, I suppose that recordings will follow, but I believe that he may keep at last a consistent size for the octaves in hist tuning.
Good to hear from you, Nick. Basically, you are right on all counts. First, let me talk about unisons. You remember I said I do not believe in anything but the most beatless unison possible. There are some people who do advocate some kind of manipulation of unisons and I believe it to be a quest for some kind of "color" when the very sterile sound of a perfected ET proves to be less than satisfying.
The way I temper the scale is very purposeful and deliberate. It follows the basic rules of Well Temperament where the slowest Major thirds M3s are among the keys with the fewest sharps or flats and the fastest M3s are among the keys with the most sharps or flats. That idea has been around since the time of J. Bach although it was not Bach who came up with it. He only used the idea and wrote music with it in mind. I knew you would want to hear how I had tuned for Grandpianoman in Portland but I also had no expectation that you would like what you heard because from the recordings I have heard where you tuned, I heard what is considered to be standard practice today and the very finest example of it.
What you do is what most piano technicians do or at least strive for. Any deviation from a perfectly equalized scale would upset the balance, so to speak. A good technician who can really tune ET by ear with perfect unisons has trained the ear to perceive the very slightest imperfection in that model. It is work that is practiced daily, one piano after another. It is easy to understand how that particular model or style of tuning becomes what sounds "right" and how anything else is "wrong" or somehow inferior.
A performing artist who has the luxury of always having a freshly tuned piano can also become accustomed to that sound and regard anything else as unacceptable. Recording engineers may also develop that kind of sensitivity.
That being understood, let us now imagine how other people may perceive the sound of a piano and music in general. Most people do not hear such perfection most of the time. Certainly, not all piano technicians can deliver it but even when they can, the piano owner can only enjoy that state of perfection for a very brief period of time.
This means that most people, most of the time hear something other than that. There was a time when I practiced what you do and believed only in a perfected ET as being the best a piano could sound. I could certainly do that today but what I found through experience and interaction with those for whom I tune pianos, those of all levels of experience from very limited to performing artists was that a Well Tempered sound has more appeal than the equally tempered sound.
People simply prefer a distinction in harmony versus all harmony the same. There is an infinite number of possibilities for Well Temperament as there are for any other variety. People, however do have their limits as to what sounds acceptable and what does not. Those distinctions are an integral part of music and music composition history. They are also an integral part of keyboard tuning history.
Now, as to what you may have heard in either these recordings recently posted on here or those on my website, I have also heard what you hear. After tuning as perfectly as I could, unisons included, I have sat in the audience and listened as an artist performed. To get the well tempered sound, it is necessary to temper at least some of the 5ths more than they would be in ET.
Nobody likes the sound of a tempered 5th. If we could tune all 5ths pure but also have all M3s beat gently, we would. Some tuners do stretch the temperament octave enough so that all 5ths sound virtually pure but of course, the consequence of that is that all M3s and M6s beat more rapidly and therefore sound more dissonant.
What I have heard when listening is that sometimes the sound of the tempered 5th sounds like an imperfect unison. I don't want my unisons to be anything but perfectly beatless because that would only upset what I do with temperament and octave stretch. Yet, when I know that my unisons have been as pristine as possible, I have heard from the piano what sounded to me like "dripping", "liquid" or "wet" unisons. This is what happens with 5ths that are tempered more than they would be in ET.
When I tune up and down from the central octave, I try to "hide" the sound of the tempered 5th as much as possible. It does not change the temperament any more than octave stretching in ET changes that temperament. What I can do, however is utilize the piano's own inharmonicity to "hide" the tempered 5ths and give the piano a clear and beautiful sound in the outer octaves the same way that any piano technician would when tuning ET.
An electronically generated curve does not do that for me. It is an example of when I want something done right, I have to do it myself. I thank Patrick from Finland for providing the impetus to write it. There is the Chas method which I have never really been sure of just what it means, there is the Stopper tuning which as I understand it, creates an ET within not an octave but an octave and 5th which is tuned as beatless. Either of these has 5ths which are barely tempered but as a consequence, M3s, M6s, M10s and M17s which all beat faster and are more dissonant as a result.
Some people like that sound, others do not. What I discovered long ago, in the early 's before I ever started tuning any unequal temperaments was that equal beating double octaves and octaves and 5ths produced the most beautiful sound possible. Neither the double octave slightly wide nor the octave and 5th slightly narrow are perfectly beatless but the amount of tempering in each is extremely small.
Both intervals sound virtually pure. This means that in the outer octaves, I can make the piano sound clear and bright regardless of which temperament I use. Anyone who tunes aurally that uses this method of octave tuning will produce a beautiful sounding piano even if the temperament is not as perfect as intended.
Your comment about the recording sounding "vintage" is interesting. Gershwin was an early 20th Century composer.
He was heavily influenced by the Jazz and Blues of his time. The playing that you hear was done by Gershwin himself, recorded on a paper roll as the very first digital technology. While that technology was imperfect and the information has been manipulated this way and that, I firmly believe that this is the sound that Gershwin himself enjoyed while he played.
The smoothed out harmony of a perfected ET would not have been what Gershwin knew and enjoyed. The modulations have purpose and distinction. Additionally, there is the sound of the small minor third present in many melodic lines. This mimics the "blue note" sound of a Jazz or Blues musician. They are meant to sound as they do in the recording.
The unisons have not deteriorated badly enough to ruin it. It sounds basically the way it is meant to sound. Certainly, there would have been very few piano technicians in Gerswin's day that could have or would have tuned a perfected ET the way we know it today, years later. Nick, if these and any future recordings spike your interest, I would be happy to travel to your place of business and tune for you. I can do it all by ear if you wish. I provided Grandpianoman with a digital record so that he can replicate what I did at will but for you, I can leave my ETD at home and tune any piano aurally.
BDB, thanks for you comments and questions. I am glad you liked the way the tunings sounded. I guess any player piano would sound like a player piano at some point but I was truly amazed at how the original Ampico player system performed.
The Modern, LX system would be expected to perform better but I was impressed with both. I will answer your question that you quoted this way: People in all walks of life range from superior to inferior. The people in charge of major enterprises sometimes get fired or have to resign because of incompetence.
Not everyone can perform as expected. Owen Jorgensen documented hundreds of pages of evidence that ET was not tuned as we know it today in earlier periods much to the dismay of people who had always believed that ET was the one and only way a keyboard instrument was ever tuned.
Recently, I went on you tube and found many examples of less than desirable piano tunings. I even caught one guy in the act of tuning reverse well. Now, you may think in terms of what could possibly have been but so do I. Gershwin was used to the distinctions of key color and worked with them as all composers had done previously.
Have you tried listening to old fixed-pitch instruments, like celestes or marimbas? Originally Posted by BDB.
Hello, GP, thanks for sharing the recording of Bill's tuning. Bill, I think you did a good job, a tuning that all together can be enjoyable, and you may not need me to say that. Your feedbacks from your customers also do confirm the quality of your tunings, so it should not be this the point of any discussion. Anyhow, the main point of yours seems to be: ET is colourless, all keys are equally wrong, pianists can enjoy UTs more and composers think of music in UT terms.
You may know, by now, why I cannot agree with you on many of your statements, mainly because I do not manage to follow the logics behind them, so I find them merely confusing. By reading Peter Serkin's above You see that Serkin himself writes "colorful in a manner that, it seems, cannot be conveyed in standard equal temperament.
Modern ETs are not "standard" equal temperaments, but very performing variants. Yet, you know that reverse well is the product of many attempts, if one ever wanted to tune 12th root of two ET, the years old ET model. You write This statement of yours again puzzles me. How can this happen? Since May you could well know about Chas Temperamental Theory and its new approach to beats and the sound whole.
How can you not "be sure of just what it means"? And many times you happen to talk about music in philological and historical terms, so I ask: could not you acknowledge ET's evolution and the basic difference between a method and a theory, before referring to actual equal tempering of the sound scale? Should not you try your best to witness these new ET theories and their practical effects?
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